I understand that not everyone is cool with eating vegetables for dinner, so I thought offering chicken was great alternative (fiancé isn’t vegan, but doesn’t eat red meat). However, my future father in law is pretty adamant about having both steak and chicken in addition to a vegan entrée. I get a very uneasy feeling every time I think of beef being served, but don’t want to appear to be ungrateful/disrespectful and deny my FIL’s request.
Yes or no to filet mignon?
- Hippie at Heart
*****
If your FFIL is putting up money for the wedding, that makes him one of the hosts. He gets to have a say in what is served for dinner.
How bout you insist on ethically raised beef? (And offer to make up the difference in price.)
Nailed it.
ReplyDeleteI think this is a great answer from ESB - 100% dead on.
ReplyDeleteJust out of curiousity, why are you more comfortable with chicken than beef? I'd sort of get if we were talking fish over beef but I've never heard anyone have a bigger problem with red meat than with poultry, in terms of ethics. Stuff is either ethically raised or not, right? I mean, I know the beef industry is terrible but I know chickens are treated really badly, too.
I'm not trying to be contrarian--I just honestly want to know. I eat meat but have kind of an uneasy relationship with it and am always looking for more knowledge about it.
Uh, not that ESB is really the place for that discussion...
That was my question. I've been a vegetarian for ethical reasons for several years and do not understand when carnivores chose one or the other to get upset about. Or for that matter, horses. People went fucking nuts about horse meat being mixed in with their beef. Why is one more upsetting than the other?
DeleteBut I think ESB is spot-on: yes to both, ethically raised.
Yes, was wondering the same thing and, like Hillary, would genuinely like to hear OP's reasoning. Not as a challenge-- as an earnest question.
DeleteThis is not my field at all, but for the curious at heart...
DeleteIn Europe, some people got upset about horse meat being mixed with beef not for ethical reasons (aka 'protect the horses'), but because horses are given Bute as a painkiller that can (so the studies go) have serious side effects in humans once that drug has entered our food chain...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/14/horsemeat-bute-q-and-a
I can't speak for the OP or her fiance, but I think many people just have more sympathy for the suffering of mammals than of non-mammals. Also bigger animals require more feed and longer lifetimes, so it tends to require more resources to raise them for meat. Red meat may be more unhealthy, etc.
Deleteagain...not the place for it...but it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people call folks who eat meat "carnivores". While I'm sure there is someone out there who really eats nothing but meat, the vast majority of meat-eating humans are OMNIVORES. we eat meat and veggies and fruit and grains and (this may be just me) too much sugar :) A carnivore, by definition, really eats nothing but meat.
DeleteThe main reason I have more umm beef with beef over chicken or even pork is because of environmental reasons. Lucy mentioned larger animals requiring more resources to raise, which is generally true, but there's also the issue of greenhouse gas emissions, of which beef has a much larger contribution than poultry. I can't speak to the ethics or the health stuff, but I'm also curious to learn more.
DeleteBtw, I don't see why ESB isn't the place for this discussion. It certainly hasn't stopped all of this crap :)
I am a veterinarian, and having seen the industry from up close I can say that the poultry and pig meat industry are much, much worse (in terms of health and welfare) than the beef / dairy industry. I suggest going, in all cases, for biological / organic / ethically sourced beef / chicken / poultry.
DeleteAlso, overfishing makes fish not a really "greener" alternative at all. It is very difficult to know where your fish is coming from.
And in terms of animal suffering, I do not see a difference between poultry and beef or other mammals. They have nervous systems, and they do suffer, so I find this distinction artificial. It strikes me as odd that someone, for ethical reasons, would consider it OK to eat chicken but not cows. All animals feel. The poultry industry pollutes water, uses a lot more antibiotics, etc, etc, etc.
While wedding food certainly falls under the "whoever is paying gets a say" rule...it seems ridiculous to serve a food for dinner that neither the bride or groom eat. (Especially if it is something neither of you eat as a matter of principle and most people at the wedding know that.) Going a night without red meat isn't an absurd request.
ReplyDeleteI am certainly biased, as someone who has been a vegetarian for a long time, but I would also be upset at the idea of me or my family paying for lots of people to eat a cow, no matter how it was raised.
If you do decide to protest the steak though, make your husband do it, not you. Maybe you could do Vegan, Chicken or Fish? Then at least there would be two non-hippy-veggie dishes to chose from.
I agree with ESB completely. My parents paid for the food at our wedding so I gave them pretty much free-rein over what was served, but with the guidance that it would be awesome if any meat that was served was sourced as locally and ethically as possible. I think I also asked that the meal be as close to something they'd serve at home (they're excellent cooks and they throw great dinner parties) as possible. They chose pesto pasta, a fresh greens salad and a beef dish as the main choices (there were also other side dishes- it was a buffet), which made it so that vegetarians could just skip the meat part. The food was sourced locally and tasted homemade, and omnivores and vegetarians alike were full and happy. I think when you're serving a large group of people like that, your first concern should be "will everyone be able to eat enough to get full" and then you can go from there and start worrying about specific dietary needs of individuals.
ReplyDeleteThere were also several gluten-free guests at our wedding and we took them into consideration as well and made a few gluten-free desserts and stuff. They were VERY appreciative, and no one got gluten-sick afterwards (phew!).
DeleteP.P.S. My husband and I raise free-range, organic hogs for food but we did NOT make everyone at our wedding eat pork and pork alone. I think the same concept can be applied to vegetarian/vegan weddings. There are a lot of people in this world who do not like vegetables (crazy, I know, but my FIL is part of that club) and would definitely go hungry at an all-veggie wedding.
DeleteYes-- this is an interesting and poignant take on it. As a former vegetarian, I was often offended when people did NOT consider a vegetarian option for events. I think its important to remember to show the same respect and concern for meat eaters. Just because people SHOULD like vegetables and vegetarian fare doesn't mean they do. And while your food preferences are steeped in ethical decisions, that doesn't really make them more important or valuable than others' food preferences. It's important to offer options that will FEED all your guests-- that is the way to be a good host. And then yes to what ESB said about your ILs being hosts and having say and you pushing for ethically raised beef.
DeleteI agree that it is important to accommodate your guests as much as possible. But honestly, I think it is a sad state of affairs when asking people to go one meal without meat is considered some kind of crazy imposition.
DeleteThat is beside the point though...this couple is already serving chicken!
Tonia - I wish you'd blog more!
DeleteI was in my best friend's wedding and at the time both she and her husband were vegetarians. The meal was full on vegetarian. I love me some meat, but it didn't kill me to eat a meal that was prepared vegetarian. I doubt your guests will die either...but I guess if they are paying then you have to let them have some say so. My parents are completely paying for our wedding, and I let go of the food. I'm letting them have free reign.
ReplyDeleteagree completely with esb. and if you're ok with chicken being served, it's bonkers to then draw the line at beef.
ReplyDeletealso, you would never see this with the tables turned - imagine going to a carnivorous wedding where they didn't provide veggie options because of this 'you must only eat what I eat' mentality.
I say this as a vegetarian who is having some kick-ass veggie food and meat dishes at my wedding, where people can choose to have whatever they like - served family style and silver service.
plus it's your FIL's money, let him have and pay for his bloody (hah) steak.
Um, those are not comparable situations, unless your guests literally only eat meat. It's not like, as a vegetarian, I turn up to an event and expect mushroom risotto or something specific. I just want to be able to eat SOMETHING. And meat eaters are able to eat a vegetarian entree.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI know it's not a realistic comparison, I was just trying (rather unsuccessfully) to say that I often get annoyed when their are no DECENT veg options at events - and I know there are people who get upset when they don't have a meat option.
DeleteIn reality I think the chicken option is fine, and people can suck it up - but in this case the FIL is paying and he wants steak - if she doesn't then she should be paying for it herself.
Money comes with strings attached and it's naive for the couple to think otherwise; their parents are hosting the event.
"Money comes with strings attached" -- what is this, a used car transaction? A government aid program?
DeleteThis is a relationship between family members! It's not naive to think that the father can at least be respectful and reasonable with his kid and kid's fiance's beliefs.
And I agree that your comparison was terrible.
first of all, the fact that this kind of question comes up A MILLION times shows that many parents do think that paying means they have a say.. do you read this blog?
Deletesure, in the ideal family situation it would be great if money was handed over with no question of what it was being spent on .. but it sounds, quite obviously, like this FIL wants a say. (and I agree with people who commented below that he could be seeing it as something to do with his reputation as a host)
If you can't stomach it, pay for it yourself.
My parents don't eat red meat for health reasons, and my fiance and I are vegetarians, so we're going with a chicken, a fish, and a veggie option. However, if someone was paying that wanted there to be red meat, we would have included it. But, I'm also at that point in wedding planning where I'll do anything if it's the path of least resistance.
ReplyDeleteI am having sort of a similar dilemma as the above poster. I am having a kosher wedding--I don't keep kosher in my daily life, but something about a Jewish wedding with bacon wrapped scallops served during cocktail hour just makes me uncomfortable, so it is going to be kosher. My parents are paying and my father also wants it kosher, so we're on the same page on this (if we weren't, the parents would pull rank because they are paying, but fortunately we're in agreement on this). The future husband is fine with whatever, and his parents aren't contributing to the wedding reception so they don't get a say (I should note that they are not Jewish).
ReplyDeleteHowever, I want a dairy desert (ice cream sundae bar please)and cheesy things during cocktail hour and the dinner, so the reception will have to be kosher dairy. When keeping kosher you can't mix milk and meat (so, no cheeseburgers, no goat-cheese stuffed chicken, etc.). This means no meat of any sort other than fish, and yes, in Judaism poultry is considered a meat. At this point I am figuring we'll have a fish entree and a vegetarian entree, but I do realize that not everyone likes fish.
Should I bend the kosher rules and have a chicken dish? Red meat I will not do, but I am wondering if people will get grumpy if I only have a fish main and a veggie main to serve to my guests. Everyone likes chicken, right? Or should I just let the guests be adults and manage themselves? Just looking for feedback and advice, I have plenty of time to make this decision fortunately.
Also, we have a vegan, lots of vegetarians, several gluten intolerant people, several lactose intolerant people, an adult cousin with a severe nut allergy, and I actually have extended family members who keep strict kosher (we're talking separate plates and refrigerators), so it is going to be super fun trying to feed all these people! Yay....
Ungh sorry that is so long, it didn't seem that long when I was typing it out. Bummer.
DeleteAs a guest, I would not be upset with vegetarian and fish as my entree options, especially if the veggie option was actually a good meal (and not one of those, leftover "throw some green beans and tomatoes on a plate because we don't know how to deal with vegetarians" kind of meal). I especially would not be upset if the meal was selected with religious reasons in mind.
DeleteI think if the person paying has strong feelings, that changes things, but your guests are grown ups and will be fine, imo.
I think stick kosher. Just let everyone be adults and sort themselves out. You seem to have very valid reasons for wanting the meal to be kosher -- if anyone has a problem with it, that's on them.
DeleteIn my experience, everyone is much happier at a kosher meal when the desserts are dairy. Even when I was a big meat eater, I would happily trade my dinner chicken for a dessert not made with margarine and the other icky things that come in parve desserts. Shudder.
DeleteIf someone complains (though hopefully not to you), just give them more ice cream.
I would definitely stick Kosher. You already have 2 options for people to choose from and like Shiri says, I think it's more important to have the dairy desserts...
DeleteThanks for the advice guys, I really appreciate it. And truth, nothing bums me out like pareve desserts. (Although pareve deserts suck too, I did not spell check my comment at all, and therefore feel shame).
DeleteMy very Orthodox cousin got married a year and a half ago and I just sort of poked at her pareve desserts, no bueno.
For a different perspective, I ended up adding one chicken main dish to the otherwise kosher dairy menu because my parents (who paid for the food and maintain a kosher home) didn't think the fish and veggie dishes would constitute a robust enough meal for our guests. I was leaning toward keeping it strictly kosher dairy, but my mom wanted to provide more options that would satisfy folks who didn't like fish or who considered a meal incomplete without some sort of meat. It ended up being more than fine - everyone liked the food AND we had lox and bagels (my favorite). If any of the more frum members of my family complained about the food not being strictly kosher, well, I didn't hear about it. While I think it would have been fine without the chicken dish (it was just one of four buffet entrees), my mom noticed that the chicken was a popular choice. So, I'm glad we didn't stick to our original kosher dairy plan to save my parents some worry, but I'm betting people may not have missed meat as much as my parents feared.
DeleteMy husband and I don't eat dairy and his grandmother has celiac so I feel your pain about specialized diets. The difference is I was one of those specialized diets so I got to make things suit me. We had a breakfast for dinner theme to our food and no one even guessed that the sausage gravy and caramel sauce for the waffles were dairy free. There's lots of ways to cover dietary restrictions without it affecting your guests.
DeleteAt the time of my first wedding several years ago, both my fiance and I were vegetarian. We decided that keeping the reception meat-free was really important to us ethically. We were in our late 20s but still rebellious (apparently not rebellious enough to skip marriage altogether) and trying to do the whole wedding differently. We wanted the various components to be representative of us as people, and saw our decisions about the food we served to be in keeping with this sentiment. My parents were paying for the food, but after a couple of conversations they saw our point of view and agreed. This was BIG, as we are Polish and my family is rather meat-loving. But they understood that this was important to both of US. There were certainly jokes about this as the wedding was approaching, but no one complained after the reception. Indeed, people loved the food and had a bit of an eye-opening moment. Not that everyone became vegetarian - that, was not our objective - but people certainly realized you can have a big party with a huge selection of flavourful food that does not include meat.
ReplyDeleteI think it is important to stand up for one's principles -- and this needs not immediately mean that you are offending someone else's. I suppose this is a matter of different approach to proper etiquette, but I think that when parents offer to help with funding parts of the wedding, it does not necessarily meant that they should have the final say. What happens if parents pay for the dress? Would you suggest that they choose the dress for the bride? Or if they pay for everything - do you give them carte blanche on all decisions? I think you can converse about this and convey how important it is for you to do things one way or another; your parents will understand.
I am with you on this last paragraph. Paying for your childs' wedding is a gift, not an obligation or expectation of parenthood. It seems really old-fashioned to expect that people who pay get the final say.
DeleteBoth sets of parents contributed financially to our wedding, and we did a mostly vegan (there was one item on the menu that had cheese) dinner, along with vegan cake. No one complained at the end of the day. And if they did, they certainly knew better than to complain to one of us (although a month later DH's grandparents sent us a Christmas gift that was a box of assorted meats and cheeses).
ReplyDeleteI think it's important to let the wedding represent who you are, and have it so that it feels true to yourself. I don't think that the financial gift gets to dictate your food ethics for a day.
Spot on. You can't force your habits on others, even if it's your wedding...and especially if he's putting up money for it. Get comfortable with it and move on. It will be an amazing day, you'll look beautiful and you'll never say 'it would have been perfect if it hadn't been for people who enjoy meat enjoying meat'.
ReplyDeleteKate
www.thrillofthechaise.com
I don't think that providing your guests with a thoughtfully chosen, wonderfully prepared, free meal that is also meatless is the same as "forcing your habits on others."
DeleteI totally agree. How is this ANY different than saying, I friggin' love Italian food, so I'm going to serve a family style Italian feast for my wedding? Obviously things like gluten intolerance and nut allergies aside, what the hell is so important about all the sirloin-loving people not getting one?
DeleteSince when is a free expensive catered amazing meal without beef the equivalent of bad hostessing?
Vegetarian does not equal less than, it equals different, and if I went to an Indian wedding and they served an Indian meal, would I have the right to complain about not having a steak? Does this mean the couple "forced their habits on me?" I just don't understand this American mentality at all.
I agree with ESB, but I don't agree with Kate, because I think this: "you'll never say 'it would have been perfect if it hadn't been for people who enjoy meat enjoying meat'." is decidedly not true for some vegetarians. I don't think OP should just suck it up - I actually don't think she is being unreasonable at all - but that she has to realize that this is the trade off for having a parent pay.
DeleteDESSERT ONLY PARTY! Problem solved.
ReplyDeleteBut really, I think for your FIL this might be less about what your guests will eat (I'm sure most of your guests will be fine with whatever you serve, some weird relatives will probably complain regardless of what you serve) and more about what he is serving as a host. Some parents are traditional and worry that not serving red meat (or not shelling out for fancy flower arrangements, or not having a big wedding cake) will make them look cheap. If that's the case, there isn't really a great work around. He's going to feel uncomfortable not giving guests that option when his name is on the invitation. You're going to feel uncomfortable having meat served.
Maybe I'm wrong and he is just so obsessed with steak that he can't live one night without it. Who knows?
Are you doing plated vs. buffet? At least with plated the kitchen will only be ordering as much beef as you actually need based on your guests' RSVP cards. That might make it (minimally) better? And yes to ethically sourced meat if possible, if you're veg for that reason and not just uncomfortable with the idea of eating animals altogether (totally valid, but I know different people have different reasons).
I had a similar thought - I have very old school, traditional, eastern european in-laws (i should add they live comfortably, but are not wealthy by any means), and all of our pre-wedding disagreements seemed to boil down to their weird need to make everything seem as fancy as possible in order to not look cheap in front of their friends. This, of course, was completely not in line with our casual outdoor fete, which caused my MIL to flip out a few times ("you're wearing a SHORT dress?!?! gasp!") - compromises were made (for example, dinner was plated instead of the family style vision we had in mind) in order to keep the peace, and they were able to show face in front of their friends by keeping up with the joneses and whatnot. Not sure if that's the case with OP, but it's a thought.
Deletethat's a tough one, and depends a lot on your FIL's approach to this wedding. Is he being a PITA about a million details? Doesn't sound like it. So maybe give him this one. It's pretty well-intentioned (wanting to be a good host vs imposing his religion/values/taste/etc on you).
ReplyDeleteif this questioner was jewish and her parental sponsor asked her to serve pork, would we all be telling her she had to bend? one does not have to compromise one's ethics at one's own wedding, full fucking stop.
ReplyDeletewhat ethics? she is already serving chicken!
Delete<3, lmo
DeleteTo be fair though, the groom eats chicken. Neither of them eat beef.
DeleteHmm. Upon reading this again, I think I do have a problem with FFIL and ESB's response. There are two parts of the problem, actually. First, why is he insisting on having a red meat option (and, presumably, to come across as a generous and thoughtful host) when neither his son nor daughter in law eat red meat, and he knows that many of the guests will know that? If he's really worried about people not knowing that, he could add a little note in the menu about honoring the bride and groom's preferences. It's not even like there will be *no* meat, which, btw, isn't a problem in my book either. Second, and what really rubs me the wrong way, is that it doesn't even sound like he's considering his son and FDIL's preferences here, and it's not like it's a preference about the tablecloth color or cake flavor... it's an moral, ethical, philosophical, habitual preference that is, at least for FDIL, "a part of who I am and my future moving forward." Why would you insist on red meat as a host, when your guests of honor don't eat red meat because it's who they are?? I wouldn't want a FIL like this. Ugh. It's just one freaking meal.
ReplyDeleteI think this might actually be about more than the food. Generally speaking, steak is expensive and having steak at a wedding is just another way to show that you're having a fancy occasion and pulling out all of the stops. Since FFIL is paying for the food he may be concerned that chicken and veggies will look more like the economical option rather than the ethical option. I could be way off, but I know I have some super judgmental older relatives and my mother is definitely not looking forward to their comments when I get married about how we should have had a live band or should have done a buffet. Maybe FFIL doesn't want to hear about how he didn't spring for steak at his son's wedding...
ReplyDeleteThis was my thought too, actually. I don't know where "Hippie at Heart" is from, but here in the Midwest having a steak option is just...what you do. People gossip if you don't offer steak, because what are you--some kind of cheapskate?? Steak is a proper meal and it's an affront to serve all this rabbit food! Red-blooded Americans eat beef!
DeleteIf FFIL is the one paying (and especially if he's made that known to his family and friends) he might be worried about judgement.
It's all nonsense, of course, but curiously real nonsense.
ugh. i would just like to say that expecting an OMNIVORE to graciously accept a (well balanced) meat-free meal is not the same as asking a VEGETARIAN to eat a PORK ONLY meal.
ReplyDeletemy gosh.
YES.
DeleteMy husband and I were both vegetarian when we got married. We had a small plate thing with lots of vegetarian and meaty options. Many guests thanked us for serving meat because they confessed they had been kinda dreading an all veg thing.
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I had plenty of great options, but we hardly ate anything (because busy talking to guests, hopped up on emotions, forgot to eat). I feel good about our decision. YMMV.
Can some people not go ONE MEAL without meat?
ReplyDeleteSheesh!!!!
of course they can - but this isn't about that. the groom eats chicken so there will already be a meat option, and the FIL is footing the bill so he wants a steak option. THAT is what it's about.
DeleteThis is equivalent to me saying "can you vegetarians not eat meat for ONE MEAL. Sheesh."
DeleteAs someone who can't eat soy, grains, legumes, or dairy for health reasons this attitude drives me crazy. I eat (ethically raised) meat/animal protein at every meal (and offered both a vegetarian and a vegan option at my wedding). You make totally different, but equally valid and thoughtful food choices. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??
@Alli I FEEL YOU
DeleteI really liked your article and posting your pic as it is very interesting to read thank you
ReplyDeleteWhy is a meat option so important to him? Is it a status/hospitality thing? Cultural thing? Can you & your fiance talk to him about it? Sure, paying for part of the wedding gets him a say in the planning, but not the final word, certainly. I wouldn't just roll over on something I was truly uncomfortable with. If you explain your reservations & listen to his motivations, maybe you can find a solution everyone can agree on. (Of course this only works if everyone involved is a reasonable adult... YMMV)
ReplyDeleteDo you have a caterer yet? Maybe invite the future father-in-law to a tasting... the "must have beef" mentality might melt away if he tries some delicious, fancy vegan, chicken or fish options.
I don't know where this wedding is located, but I am from the Midwest and my family went apeshit when there wasn't a red meat option for my cousin's wedding. It was absurd, and it was something she had to deal with. She and her husband actually ended up changing the menu weeks before the wedding because people were being such ridiculous babies.
ReplyDelete