As the queen of straight talk, maybe you can help us out.
My brother and his girlfriend are both in university; they have been friends for years and in a serious relationship for two years, and at this point there is no doubt in either of their minds that they are going to get married. We spent their last visit strategizing about cheap wedding venues.
My sister just went and visited him sans girlfriend (girlfriend is in Boston, brother is in Montreal) and during the visit found out that he is not planning to propose. He said they've already talked about it and she said she didn't mind if he didn't. My sister and I both think that that's just what she said, but that she would still be thrilled with a proposal and a ring (obviously, if you love someone the proposal is a formality, but it's a very special and meaningful formality, as formalities go).
What do you think? They're not calling themselves engaged, even though they're already planning the wedding, so how do you make the transition from boyfriend/girlfriend to engaged couple if not via a proposal?
*****
I think you should mind your own beeswax.
Photo: Arthur Elgort
meh, this is pretty common for couples these days. They agree they're getting married and start planning. (a proposal is just an agreement in question and answer format. if they've already reached the agreement mutually, no proposal necessary.)
ReplyDeleteSurely you make the transition from boyfriend/girlfriend to engaged couple by deciding to get married and by planning a wedding if the proposal/ring doesn't matter to them it shouldn't matter to anyone else.
ReplyDeleteI loooooove to give my little brother unsolicited advice. If this were my little brother, I'd yell at him that if he like it then he shoulda put a ring on it.
ReplyDeletemy parents never had a proposal and they've been married for 35 years... can we please kill this ridiculous dialogue that every woman wants a surprise and a big ol ring. If she said she doesn't than it seems like.. i dno.. She doesn't?
ReplyDeleteMy parents didn't either. The modern, over-the-top proposal is totally a new thing. Definitely doesn't mean that a couple won't be happy if they don't have a big official kick-off to their engagement.
DeleteI had no proposal or engagement ring. We made the transition by talking about if we wanted to get married (over a period of many months), deciding that we did, and then deciding when we were ready to tell other people how we felt. When we had a rough date in mind, we told family and close friends that we were planning on getting married "next June." It was not complicated.
ReplyDeleteIf she actually DOES want a ring and a proposal, let this be a lesson to her in not lying to the (future) husband about her needs.
ReplyDeleteWord. If she is secretly pining for a ring and can't/won't communicate that to her fiance, there are going to be bigger problems for this relationship than a ring. Either way, it's none of the sister's bidness.
DeleteI want a ring and it would be nice to have a proposal but the bf and I are already knee deep in wedding planning although we don't call each other fiance/e or engaged. There is a ring coming at some point, so I'm assuming he will do the whole official proposal thing as a formality. But geez there's enough stress just talking about wedding stuff and navigating what our future marriage will look like.
ReplyDeleteGive these people a break and be happy for them!
Just my two cents, but if you (as in you and your significant other) are knee deep in wedding planning, you're engaged. 'Engaged' means you've made an agreement to get married, so if you're planning a wedding, then you're engaged.
DeleteEngaged means what people want it to mean. It's a matter of self identification, like sexuality. I understand that you're trying to be supportive of Anon7:23, but you can't tell someone else what their relationship is; only they get to decide that.
DeleteI'm Anon7:23 and for us we're engaged when we're ready to tell everyone which is when there's a ring and he's done the official proposing. Until then we're keeping it quiet because who needs the whole world asking "when's the date" "where is the reception" every 10 minutes.
DeleteI'm Anon8:55. So you ARE engaged, you're just not telling anyone. There's a difference between that and doing all that planning while NOT being engaged. It's totally your prerogative whether or not you want to shout it out to the world before you get the ring.
DeleteTo Miss K - I disagree, 'engaged' does not mean what people WANT it to mean. It means you have an agreement to get married. For some people, that agreement comes with a ring and a proposal, for others, it is decided during a casual conversation on the couch.
Anon7:23 again: In our books we're NOT engaged yet because then I'd be telling everyone "hey we're engaged and getting married!" Yes, we're planning a wedding and have made that commitment/agreement... then again we haven't run out and booked anything yet.
DeleteAnon 8:55, I have to disagree with you. I was once in what seems like a similar situation to Anon7:23. We knew we wanted to get married, we were thinking about our timeline and priorties - but we were not engaged until we chose to tell people we were engaged. (Which in our case was kicked off by a ring and proposal - but that's not necessary).
DeleteNow that we are officially engaged we are in a completely different place, for three reasons. 1. Our families and friends treat us differently - although everyone assumed we'd get married, his father now considers me his "future daughter-in-law" and that does change our dynamic. 2. Everyone has an opinion about our wedding. I'm so glad we took the time to figure out our priorties before all this extra noise. 3. It feels different. I know that I've loved him and we'd be getting married for 2 years before the engagement, but it still feels a little more permanent and a little more real.
I get that it can be different for everyone, and that might not have been the case for you. But there are some relationships where an engagement is NOT when a wedding is discussed, it's when your relationship is changed and labeled between you and your community. I can't speak for Anon7:23 but I would find it hurtful and disrespectful to have someone else tell me that I'm mis-labeling my own relationship.
so 'knees deep in planning' apparently means that they are talking about a potential wedding. The fact that they haven't book anything yet makes it very clear that they aren't yet engaged.
DeleteI think anon 7:23's wording is what threw some of us off, it sounded like they were actually planning/booking the wedding, which is what you do when you're engaged.
7:23 back again... We are actually planning a wedding. We haven't booked anything. We are getting married. Does it really matter? Why does there need to be the label? We'll be engaged when we're ready to publicly call it that.
DeleteAnon1:48, you're spot on. "Engaged" is a social label as well as a technical one, and it has very distinct meanings related to how other people think of you. Therefore, a couple CAN be planning a wedding but not be in that socially defined status yet. GO GO SOCIOLOGY! Anyone who doesn't understand that, just think harder.
Deletehow do you make the transition from boyfriend/girlfriend to engaged couple if not via a proposal?
ReplyDeleteyou send a wedding invitation.
word.
DeleteWell, my perspective was kind of that she might have legitimately not needed a proposal but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice. Like, if my husband had've asked me, do you want a big engagement ring, I would've definitely said no, because I never felt like I needed that. But when he surprised me with a big ring without asking, it was real nice.
ReplyDeleteBut hey-- I asked for straight talk; I'll take it like a man. Minding my own business.
Or she REALLY DOESN'T want a ring and proposal and it would really piss her off to have him cave to pressure from his sisters to conform to WIC standards.
DeleteShe is also a good friend of mine and is not the kind of girl who would actively object to a ring/proposal. My brother's words were that she didn't mind not having one.
DeleteIf she's a good friend of yours then I would just open the conversation with her. Maybe by telling her your brother's comment, or simply saking her what she's thinking about a ring and then encouraging her to speak up if it's something she really wants.
DeleteIf you think meddling is warranted by how well you know both of them then the most helpful thing you can do is empower them both to communicate clearly about their wants and then step back.
He should give her something that she would like if she doesn't want a ring. It wouldn't hurt and it just might help. But, if he can't figure that out on his own then he's a moron.
ReplyDeleteDitto Anna - my parents didn't have a proposal. They just decided to get married and went and bought a ring together and they've been married 40 years. And I didn't want a proposal (or a ring), told my husband that, he proposed anyway (without a ring, at least) and it was A BIG MESSY EVENING - no cute proposal story here. I mean, we got past that and are married, (we'd already agreed to get married before that), but when he proposed the first thing that went through my mind was "WTF, does this man KNOW ME AT ALL? Was he listening/why did he ignore my wishes?" Some ladies mean what they say. Most of us, actually. I'm betting your brother knows his girlfriend.
ReplyDeleteI did not care for a ring and had discussed with my man multiple times that I didn't want one. Whenever he mentioned it to others (men or women) they would inevitably say "nah she's just saying that, you HAVE to get her a ring."
ReplyDeleteHullloo, not all of us are lying with the hopes that our partners will see through the lie and do the opposite. Annoying.
She probably does actually mean that she doesn't need a ring/proposal. But, that doesn't mean she would not consider it a very sweet/memorable/heartfelt/romantic gesture. I honestly told my fiance that I did not need a diamond ring and all that jazz. But, when he surprised me with the ring (a garnet, my birthstone) that he picked out and that he wanted to give me to symbolize our future together, I balled my eyes out.
ReplyDeleteI think planting the idea of proposing in your brother's head, just because you believe it would make his gf/your friend happy, and not because it needs to happen in order to make the "transition" happen, would not hurt. If he doesn't act on the idea, leave it at that.
Also, I frequently admonish my brother for having not yet proposed to his gf of many years, so maybe I just don't understand staying out of things.
I agree. It's not such a Big Deal either way. If you haven't already prodded him a bit about whether he was suuuure she wouldn't like a ring if he got her one anyway, then what are you waiting for? And if you have, then well, you tried, right? That's about all you can do.
DeleteWell he could just do this:
ReplyDeleteOh Dear Lord No Please NO, why don't you at least let her do up her DRESS!
That is my idea of hell.
Delete!!!!!!!!!!!! When he humps the floor at 9:07 I srsly threw up in my mouth a little.
Deleteew.
DeleteI got a proposal, but no ring (both artists, no money, who cares etc) and some people we know treated it like an enormous faux pas on the part of my now-husband. Truth is, if there had been a ring I guess I would have loved it, but there wasn't and that doesn't change a thing.
ReplyDeleteI think maybe people get to wound up in what they, personally, consider to be the "right thing to do" (ugh) and not consider that other people have different expectations and wishes.
THIS!
DeleteMy husband and I agreed on a no proposal and no ring situation but one night he opened up to absolute strangers (long story) and got crucified. So I got a $100 ring and a bent knee proposal. It calmed his nerves so I was okay with it all, but sometimes I wish I could go back in time and punch those people in the face.
Our plan was to design our wedding rings together (and spend some $$$ there). Now I've got THE most awesome and unique wedding ring in the world (so does he!) and it sits next to my little cheapy that I feel I can't not wear.
Point being - assume that people in relationships are grown ups and can make their own decisions based on what they want.
A proposal would, of course, be nice. But now that I stop and think about it, probably thousands of couples just forego that and hop right into wedding planning (or elope!)! In the end, what truly matters is what works best for each relationship.
ReplyDeleteI REALLY wanted a ring. A lot of women I know do/did. It's a pretty obvious sort of thing. I wanted one so much I wouldn't have ever said I didn't, just to say it.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that most people that WANT a ring and proposal are on the same page. If she says she doesn't want one, most likely, she doesn't. Even if a woman maaaayyybbbeee kind of wanted one, would she really outright ruin her chance of getting one by saying she doesn't want one?
C'mon. He's your brother but he's grown up.
ReplyDelete___________________________________________
Off topic: Vagina Wedding Dress - WTF?!?!?!?
http://www.ufunk.net/insolite/wtf-dress/
I guess I am super close to my brother - The only thing I would say to him is: Ring or no Ring, you might want to ask her to marry you officially. I know that everyone has differing views and if he says that he isn't asking that you should respect that, but perhaps he doesn't know how special that moment CAN be. (Not saying it is, not saying it has to be). You could also explain to him that after you announce that you are getting married people are naturally going to ask about the proposal and ring... something that didn't seem like that big of a deal might become a bigger deal... AND maybe it wouldn't, but what's the harm in planning on proposing.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note: I know that some ladies have said wedding planning was so stressful I didn't want to add another layer by making him propose... I don't see how a proposal can add a magnitude of stress to wedding planning.
Dude knows his girl better than you do. If he doesn't propose and should have, she'll let him know. It'll be a good lesson for them in having honest communication with each other and a good lesson for you in staying the hell out of it.
ReplyDeleteI like how people's responses are like "this is my story, I bet it's yours." lulz, sure.
ReplyDeleteI saved my mister the trouble and proposed to him. We had been talking about getting married. So randomly I looked over at him and said "What are we waiting for? I love you. I want to spend the rest of my life with you. Want to marry me?" And he said "OF COURSE I DO!" :) Then we did ring research till we found what we liked and got the engagement ring 2 months after I proposed. On top of that, we both chipped in for it *GASP* :P People will always have their opinions. Just do YOU.
ReplyDeleteGirl power, baby. Good on you!
DeleteBottom line though, this is your brother's relationship, not yours. As much as we all love to think we know how someone else's relationship functions, we don't. Maybe she does want a ring. Who cares, not your relationship. Maybe she and your brother have already hashed it all out. Whatever. You are not getting married to this girl. He is. Butt out.
ReplyDelete"Mind your own beezwax," haha I agree. If they are in a serious relationship and are already planning, they probably know what each other wants more than you and his sister do. If you get the feeling that maybe she does secretly want him to propose, then it was good that you mentioned it. But now it is time to drop it. If she really wanted a proposal, then it is her responsibility to let him know, not you.
ReplyDelete